Genealogy – Leaders

We are an active, retired couple visiting Millstreet for the second time while staying for a few days at Killarney. I know a great deal about my ancestors, the Leaders, who were from Millstreet, my ancestor owning the Leader house on Clara Mountain which was in a dilapidated state when we visited in 2003. I know of no-one actually living in Millstreet with the Leader name. My third cousin told me that I would be related to all of them there to some degree. I would like to meet some of them to say “hullo.” Way back, the Leaders and the O’Keefes were related as well. Anyone out there doing genealogy? Would you like to make contact?
Margaret Kaiser.
email:

211 thoughts on “Genealogy – Leaders”

  1. I think this is another rather erroneous version from Burkes of the Leader descent, there are about 3 or 4 versions before it becomes closer to what various Leader records show.
    King William 111 was coronated in 1689, and we know Henry Leader was living at Castlecor in 1676. (This Henry knows people in Saffron Walden)
    Leaders appear to be living in Kinsale from 1638, and I suspect John Leader was resident in Ireland before becoming an officer in Cromwells army.
    Alice Leader (John’s widow as it is surmised) married George Chinnery who had been in Ireland since 1642 (of Castlecor), and the dates associated with Georges children show that Alice must have been his second wife, and susequently the parents of Marvella who married Thomas Radley.
    It was John Leader, son of Henry & Margaret Radley who married Margaret Herbert from Muckross, and their son Edward married Miss Thornhill, who’s son John sold Mt Leader to William Leader, Edward’s cousin.
    Henry Leader who lived at Castlecor in 1676 appears to have passed his lands to Henry who married Margaret Radley in 1709, ptobably his death.
    Cheers.
    Milton.

  2. Hi Lorraine – Burke’s seems a little confused – it was John Leader (b.1698) who married Margaret Herbert of Muckross in 1718. John & Margaret did have a son, Edward but he couldn’t have been in William III’s army because King William died in 1703. That is not to say that the Leaders of Saffron Walden in Essex didn’t originally come from Huntingdonshire (Cambridgeshire) and that an Edward Leader might have been an ancestor. There was mention somewhere on the web (can’t find it now) that the Cork Leaders descended from Sir Oliver Leader of Huntingdonshire. However Sir Oliver, who married Frances Baldwyn and lived at Great Staughton, 8 miles from Huntingdon, never had any issue.

  3. Milton and Alan Thank you for clearing that up. Thought the dates were a bit out. At least, Burke did not commit the cardinal sin of inferring that he descended from Leader Iron Works Manager, who, I believe from a paper I read, did not go to Cork, only Limerick.
    Lorraine

  4. Milton You were looking for a THOMAS Leader.gent Try this one Quote from an old email dated 2007″Thomas Leader’s(gent) Young Thomas went to private school outside Bath wed.cert.states 22 when married in9/1/1890. Father William Francis Leader decd.gent. Thom. was born in Cork. Possible brother William T.Leader at same school born 1866 in Cork. Thomas did not work and lived off private income.” Of any use?

    Lorraine

  5. More on Leaders,

    Surnames of the Adventurers for Lands in Ireland, under the
    various Acts and Ordinances of Subscription; commencing with
    the Act of 17 Charles I. chap. 33, A.D.1642, and ending in 1646;
    When all further subscription ceased:
    LEADER on this list along with FREEMAN

    CHINNERY on list of Bandon settlers in 1620.

    So these families were in Ireland before 1649.

    Thanks Lorraine, yes these are descendants of Thomas Leader of Ashgrove,
    William Francis was his son.
    The Thomas mentioned here is WF’s son, & WT is actually William Francis Jnr, another son of William Francis.

    I’m also now convinced that a John J Leader LP of Crescent, Queenstown, Cork was also Thomas Leader of Ashgrove’s son.

    Cheers.
    Milton.

    1. I am a descendant of George Chinnery. I am most grateful for this information which confirms what I believe to be the case – that George Chinnery already was an adult at the time of his emigration to Ireland abt 1620 and was resident there for some 22 years before returning to England in 1642, as attested to by his son’s affidavit, copy of which is kept among the MSS at the library of Trinity College, Dublin. Following his arrival in Cork, perhaps after some years, John Leader died and George took Alice, his widow as his wife sometime abt 1625. The birth dates of their three children are John Chinnery b. abt 1626-1693 (he married Katherine Terry in 1651), George Chinnery b.1628 and Marvella Chinnery b.abt 1630. She married Thomas Radley – from whom you get the Radley connection.

      1. Richard Thank you for your personal email. CHINNERY are on list of English Protestant Settlers at Bandon early 1600s. Milton is best researcher to handle this as he is directly related to Freemans who bought Castlecor from Chinnerys. As I said in my email to you , he might be away at moment. Chinnery pedigree is in National Library of Ireland,also some information on LANDED ESTATES DATABASE if that is of any help. Just a thought, if Alice L. md Geo.Chinnery 1625 it is likely that John Leader died around 1624. No one, especially women, remained unmarried for long.( Read Geo.Bennetts History of Bandon)No proof of course, but something to think about. Henry Leader married Margaret Radley dtr of Thomas Radley . Radleys are connected with both Keale and Mt Leaders.

        Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

      2. Hi Richard.

        It appears George Chinnery was married firstly to the mother of John & George Chinnery, prior to 1620, then later to the wife (Alice) of John Leader who likely died in 1650, & Marvella is their daughter.
        John & Alice Leader had a son Henry Leader who was recorded as of Castlecor in 1676, & also Flintfield.

        Henry Leader was transacting with people in Saffron Walden, Essex, & it seems probable that this is where John Leader originally came from, and the coat of arms show they are of the Essex family, which is a different family from which Richard Leader the ironworks manager came from.

        Richard and all his family died in America.

        There was also a Steven Chinnery in Mallow, Co. Cork at this time, who I’d presume to be another son of George Chinnery senior.

        I knew George had been in Ireland since before 1642, & John Leader who died in 1650 was there since before 1638.

        I have been told that a Cromwell adventurer didn’t necessarily have to arrive in Ireland with Cromwell, but could have merely been an English resident or member of such a family of Ireland who supported him, whether directly or financially.

        Castlecor was sold off to William Freeman of Kilbarry about 1700, who’s descendants married back into the Leader and other prominent families of Cork.

  6. The two boys went to Portway school, Weston, Somerset Eng. B.1869/1866 respectively. Radley on list of Prot.settlers 1590, so they were (Leaders/Rad) there much before anyone heard of Richard L of Ironworks fame. By the way, RICHARD is a RADLEY name. None of Leaders were called Richard, unless they had connection to Radley,(which they did)if anyone wishes to research them. I will sen add. offlist to you as person has portrait of Wm.Sr.(if he still has same email)

    Lorraine

  7. MILTON Someone on this list has a CHAPMAN as ancestor in the LEADER line. A CHAPMAN married into Hungerford family.(ROBERT CHAPMAN/Anne Loane Hungerford) Given the Leader penchant for marrying influential families, do you think that this(Robert Chapman) might be connected to Leaders. The person who gave me this is also connected to Cranfield.
    Lorraine

  8. Proof that Richard Leader & his wife are not ancestors of any Irish Leaders is below. (by another author).

    “LEADER, RICHARD, 1609-1661, was born in
    England, and came to New England in 1645 and became
    superintendent of the Iron Works at Lynn ; previous to
    that he had been engaged in similar business in Ireland,
    at the mines there. When on a visit to England he
    deposed, August 8, 1650, that he was a merchant of
    Boston, New England, and aged forty-one. .(New York
    Gen. & Biographical Record, Vol. 47, page 113.) In
    1651 the town of Kittery granted him and his brother
    George the mill privilege at Great Works, and com-
    menced operating a saw-mill that had nineteen saws,
    and did a big business for a short time, hence the place
    was called “Great Works.” In this enterprise they
    were the agents of John Beex & Co. of London. After
    a while they were stopped by prosecution for trespass
    by the Mason heirs.

    Richard Leader went to London in 1652 and entered
    a protest against Massachusetts, which he claimed was
    usurping authority over Kittery ; he was back in Kit-
    tery in 1653 and 1654. In 1652 he owned the “Great
    House” at Portsmouth, which he sold in 1655 to the
    Cutts brothers. It is supposed that his wife was a
    Cutts, as they called him “brother Leader.” He died
    in 1661, and Dec, 27 that year, Robert Jordan was ap-
    pointed to administer his estate. His wife’s name is
    not known.

    Children: (1) Elizabeth, b. about 1647 ; she mar-
    ried before June 30, 1668 (State Paper 31—110) John
    Hole of Kittery ; she survived him, but was killed by the
    Indians May 4, 1705. She left no children.— (2) Ann,
    born about 1649 ; m. before Feb. 10, 1667 (deeds, 11-
    362) Samuel Clarck of Portsmouth; he was a tanner;
    by his deposition it appears he was born about 1645 ;

    122

    he died about 1690. His wife was living as late as
    1723, being then a member of the Church in Ports-
    mouth. She deposed, Dec. 10, 1721, that she was then
    72 years old. April 6, 1720, she had petitioned to be
    appointed administratrix of the estates of Richard and
    George Leader, calling herself the only surviving child
    of Richard, and an heir of George.”

  9. And further indication that RICHARD Leader is not progenitor of Leader family is this. All or just about all Leades are John, Henry or Leonard. The RICHARD belongs to RADLEY family (Keale and Mt Leader). The Irish naming pattern fell down on Keale side The Nt Leader ones are Radley descendents. Great work Milton.

  10. To Richard Cairns – we are connected to the Chinnerys but probably not directly. The true source for information
    on this and the John Leaders can be had from my 3rd cousin in America. He has been doing this for 45 years or more and has worked for a government intelligency agency in America and has a high rank in the military so he can be far more accurate than I – or anyone else for that matter. He is aware of other peoples opinions and he is also aware they are wrong because he has documented proof of most things. I remember that side being a bit hazy and maybe you can tell him what you know. I do not want to give his name and rank and email through this website so if you email me personally I can provide it if you keep it confidential. I don’t want him flooded with emails as he is extremely busy with various strands of the family history and setting up a website for the McCarthys as well. He hardly gets time to email me as it always involves long explanations. He has phenomenal knowledge and memory but his work and book are always “in progress”. He may, on the other hand not get back to you for various reasons but good luck and I’ll email him that you may email him.

  11. Or, if you want to contact Len Keane, you can find his email the way I did, Google “Leonard Keane” Mr. Keane has a website with contact information and an entire book on the Leaders which, apparently, is available only at the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. I haven’t seen the entire thing, but Mr. Keane was kind enough to send me a few pages that relate to my Leaders. More recently Mr. Keane has been concentrating on his Keane/O’Cahan ancestors.

  12. From what information I have found but not yet substantiated it would seem that John Leader and George Chinnery were both affiliated either as supporters or soldiers of Oliver Cromwell. That they should both come to Ireland and acquire lands and properties at around the same time seems more than coincidence. I do not know of the origin of John Leader but information obtained states that George Chinnery came from Essex and that he came to co. Cork sometime before 1642 but that in that year he returned to England. History records that there was the “Irish rebellion” in 1641 in which a conflict occurred between native Irish Catholics on one side and English & Scottish protestant settlers on the other side, which might well explain his departure to safer lands, though it may have also been to support parliamentary ambitions to depose King Charles 1 – a bill of Grand Remonstrance having been passed in November 1641 – one of the main events that led to the dissolution of the monarchy and the death of Charles 1. It would be interesting to find out whether the Leader family were also supporters of Cromwell and whether they had any part in the events that followed.

  13. Richard, the “Cromwell soldier” story has been around for a long time. It certainly would be interesting to substantiate that.

    With the Leaders one must exercise a certain amount of caution. Given names tend to be similar (John, Henry, and William are very common), and “Leader” is not unique. All of the Cork Leaders, and those descended from Cork Leaders, do appear to be members of a single extended family, but Leaders outside of Cork may not be related. The name “Leader” is an occupational name (military officer) and probably is used by more than one English family. There are also Leaders who have no relationship to England or Ireland. There is a town in Pennsylvania in the US named Leader Heights which is the home of former Pennsylvania Governor George Leader. In this case the name is Pennsylvania Dutch (German) in origin.

    1. Harry I agree withyou. Did you notice that , contrary to Irish naming pattern, no KEALE LEADERS are called RICHARD (one exception Margaret Radley’s son named after my gt gfr Richard Henry Radley) but are named JOHN or HENRY or LEONARD? Similarly Mt Leader LEADERS. A few Richards there but as a serious researcher,(which I have to be to maintain a credible website) I found that ALL the Richards originated from RADLEY marriages. RICHARD was a much used name in Radley family, as was MARVELLA .(There is a note on IRISH ANCESTORS edited by Rosemary Ffolliott remarking on favourite names used by Radley family).

      Lorraine

  14. Notes on CHINNERY. by MICHAEL LEADER F.I.G.R.S…Quote…The father of Marvella Chinnery, (George) is said to have married the widow of the father of two LEADER brothers (who married 2 Radley sisters) An abstract from Irish Chancery Court Lawsuit sent to me(M.Leader) by Mr Weiply (whose mother was a Chinnery) shows that a JOHN LEADER held 66 acres by lease Kinsale,1638, dying intestate 1650 and his son another John Leader dying also intestate 1668 leaving a widow Joan or Jane who was still alive 1693. There is a 3 page article on CHINNERYS in IRISH ANCESTORS 1969/1986 by Rosemary Ffolliott.Apparently a difficult family to research .
    Lorraine (Radley/Leader) Egan http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

    1. Hi,

      Henry Leader (of Mt Leader/Tullig)& John Leader (of Keale) were sons of Henry Leader of Flintfield/Castlecor, Gortigeen, and it was they who married the Radley sisters.

      Henry of Gortigeen, & I presume John who died in Kinsale in 1693, were the sons of John & Alice. This Henry dies about 1709 by indication from deeds.

      The Radley girls were cousins of Henry Jnr & John of Keale.

      If Henry Jnr & John of Keale were the sons of John, then they would be marrying their neices, probably not.

      Henry Jnr & John of Keale in their early lives looked like they were also referred to as of Gortigeen.

      Henry senior in 1676 was dealing with a Thomas Spellar, a tanner from Saffron Walden, & the Leaders of Saffron Walden were also tanners, as well as linen drapers, a trade which also extended to the Mt Leader Leaders. The coat of arms for these two Leader families is the same.

      Cheer.
      Milton.

        1. “Hi, would you kindly clarify this – are there two generations of Henry and John Leader of which the elder generation were the sons of John Leader and Alice who subsequently married George Chinnery?

          It is a little confusing.

          Rgds. Richard”

          Hi Richard,

          Yes, I think so.

          There is definite evidence that Henry Leader of Gortigeen was the aquirer of most of the Leader lands around Millstreet, and that they were inherited by two branches, son Henry Leader of Mt Leader & consequently Tullig, (who died 1738), and the other son John who inherited the lands of Keale. This Henry was active in dealings by at least 1676, and was known as of Castlecor & Flintfield, Gortigeen. He appears to have died sometime close to 1709.

          It appears he was a half brother to Marvella Chinnery, & it was their sons and Daughters marrying each other.
          Marvella & Henry’s mother Alice married George Chinnery.
          John of Kinsale who died in 1668, and another girl Ann, most probably would be his siblings, although I have no proof.

          When this info is put into tree form, it shows this is the likely scenario, all others don’t stack up with the dates etc.

          I have no idea who Henry of Gortigeen married.

          It is likely that Alice’s first husband, John Leader died in Kinslae in 1650, & that was about the time she married George Chinnery of Flintfield.

          Cheers.
          Milton.

  15. Groves Topographical notes part 1 pages 63 to 72 covers Chinnery/Freeman etc and Castlecor. Something that puzzles me… Why is everything a big secret? as indicated by some posters.They are all dead and there is nothing to inherit. Dedicated researchers usually credit their sources,and respect them. Difference of opinion is allowed of course, but like the old saying goes “Put your money where your mouth is” Thanks Milton, for being a very helpful Radley/Leader researcher.

    Lorraine

    1. Well said Lorraine.

      I have notes & trees from many sources including Burkes, Casey, Michael Leader, Keane & a host of other private researchers, as well as deeds, wills, death certs etc, and my work is an aggregate of all these many fine and valuable resources, all of which have been exceptionally helpful.

      Most if not all do contain errors, some more than others, but it is from these that a general & more accurate picture can be drawn, and also errors can be found and either rectified or questioned.

      My version of events probably also contains errors, but I have also corrected alot of others with the help of all those I have had contact with, alot of credit goes to those people.

      For those who don’t share their info, well I’m not too happy to share mine as I can’t verify their info or substantiate it, which ever way.

      But as far as I’m aware my info has some of the most up to date versions of those that I have seen, and I am always willing to discuss potential mistakes and other queries….this is after all what genealogy is about.

      May we finally get the big picture correct.
      I look forward to heaps more discussion.

      Cheers.
      Milton.

    2. If I might add…

      Listing one’s sources is a necessity in any field of serious research. One needs to explain not only WHAT one knows, but WHY. Also, genealogy has enough examples of hopeful guessing and (sometimes) chicanery that providing sources is the only way to demonstrate that one has an actual basis for what one says. Also, sources enable others to follow in your footsteps.

  16. Speaking of sources..Here is a short version from Ms Donna Chernick, regarding her descent from RICHARD LEADER, Ironwks Mgr. emailed to me dated 26/11/2006. She is for verification purposes, the Admin. of Radley mailing list.

    QUOTE ” I have Radleys who appeared in Essex County N.J. as early as 1681. with some saying they were originally Ratcliffe or Radcliffe, possibly from Conneticut before going to N.J. This was John Ratcliffe, and before he died his wife changed spelling to Radley. My gggm was Hetty Radley b 1815 in Hardin Co KY and d.1866 Holt MO.. My NEW ENGLAND ANCESTORS INCLUDE LEADERs who came from England. RICHARD LEADER was born 1609 in Sussex England, worked in Ireland and then Massachusetts. His daughter ANNE LEADER 1644/49 mar. in New Hamp. SAMUEL CLARKE, and they are my direct ancestors.” UNQUOTE
    These Radleys and Leaders are not related to Cork people. Full text on website http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com
    Lorraine

  17. Hello

    Has anyone viewed the Leader family papers held in the National Archives?

    Described as:
    Leader family of Rosnalee Mount Leader Dromagh Castle etc.
    GB/NNAF/F83327 (Former ISAAR ref: GB/NNAF/F72)
    1711-1940: deeds 1711-1940, estate papers 1717-1931, family papers 1727-1931, legal papers 1756-1930

    thanks, Linda

    1. Linda-:

      I believe the late Alice Blouin (cousin to John D. Moore, U.S. Ambassador to Ireland) reviewed these records with the help of National Library personnel. I have some of her findings and remarks in her letters to me, but I don’t think there is anything that resolves some of the questions on this blog. I will plan to review them again, just in case!

      Len

  18. I’m new to family research too so I’d appreciate anyone’s help please.
    Could anyone tell me who Henry Leader of Tullig who died about 1809 married and if he had offspring? My mother-in-law was a Leader and we can only trace her family back a few generations though we also believe the Cromwellian soldier connection.

  19. Siobhan Is this the one? Henry of Tullig married Mary Kearney(d.1784) Henry died 1809.Issue Henry/Nicholas/Elizabeth who married Joseph Barry MD of Mallow, son of Robert Barry.Christabelle, who md 1…Hendley and 2 John Spread and Catherine and Marvella who died unm. My 3xgt gmother was Margaret Barry and wondering whether she was of same family as Joseph Barry, as Leaders and Radleys tended to marry same families. Anyone know of this?
    Lorraine

    1. Lorraine:

      Can you show us your Leader descent in direct male line (spouses where known) and approx. dates? This would be most helpful in following the discussions.

      Thanks,
      Len

  20. Siobhan Think I looked at wrong entry.in Burkes. Henry of Tullig /Mary Kearney appeared to have one son Henry who died at 13 years.in 1815 Milton would be able to sort this out.

  21. I’m not sure Lorraine. My generations may be confused.
    A cousin gave me the following information. I don’t have the sources she used so I can’t prove any of it. But here goes….
    Henry Leader who died 1738 married Margaret Radley. His Brother John may have married Alice Radley.
    Issue of Henry & Margaret;
    JOHN, THOMAS, HENRY(1705-1771 Tullig)MARY LEADER(PURCELL),
    MARGARET LEADER(O’KEEFFE), MARVELLA LEADER(LEADER)[she married her 1st cousin, son of John & Alice]
    Henry(1705-1771) married Mary Kearney who died in 1754. They had two sons Robert & Edward. They were both dead by 1810 and I know nothing further about them.
    1. Did Henry(1705-1771 Tullig) marry again? OR
    2. Did he have more children with Mary Kearney who survived?
    3. My information is that there was
    a JOHN LEADER(1796-1868) who married a Catherine ???, and
    was evicted in 1844 (from Tullig???)

    a THOMAS LEADER who married Mary O’ Sullivan

    and two other children whose names I don’t know

    I’m not sure even that HENRY LEADER(1705-1771 Tullig)is
    JOHN LEADER’S(1796-1868)Father.

    I hope i’ve set this out clearly. Any further clarification would be great.
    Siobhán

  22. I forgot to say in my previous post that in the info I got
    HENRY LEADER(1705-1771 Tullig) siblings are as follows;
    JOHN
    WILLIAM
    NICHOLAS
    ELIZABETH (BARRY)
    CHRISTABELLE (HENDLY)
    CATHERINE
    MARVELLA

    Do I have my generations mixed up?
    Siobhan

  23. Siohban I have copied this from BURKES.
    2 WILLIAM, of whom presently
    3 HENRY, of TULLIG m Mary KEARNEY (d July 1784) and Henry of T. died 1809) leaving issue Henry dsp 22 Feb 1815 aged 13years. The rest is as written in first message i.e.4. Nicholas/ 1.Elizabeth etc. I looked up obvious site Anc/Com where it is likely your friend obtained her info. They are more confused than I am. I can scan Leaders in Burkes for you if you wish. As I said before ,Milton Froggatt would be the best to answer these questions. Lorraine

  24. I’m pretty sure this is the Henry of Tullig about whom we had an interesting exchange last fall. The thing is, Mary Kearney died and Henry kept having children. If he married a second time, the name of the wife is not recorded. Either, he married a Catholic second wife or he had an affair with a Catholic woman (maybe a servant?). In either case, records don’t seem to have survived. My John Hall Leader may be a grandson of this second marriage/affair.

  25. Hi Siobhán,
    Milton is the best person to answer your questions. From what he has sent me, it was not Henry (1705 – 1771) who married Mary Kearney but his son, also Henry (1747 – 1809). Henry (1705 – 1771) was married to Christabella Philpott. Henry and Mary Kearney had two children – Mary (married Charles Barry) and Henry (died 1836). This last Henry had no issue and when he died, Tullig House went to the Morris family.

    Mary Kearney died about 1784 and Henry (1747 – 1809) remarried to Ellen ?? on 21 April 1785. They had children Edward and John who both died in 1810, Thomas (married Margaret Power), Nicholas (married Eliza Ellis), William (married Frances Cahill), Elizabeth (married Eyre Green Ellis)and Leonard died young at the age of 13.

    Alan

  26. That’s fantastic. Jack sent me a link to the photos of your wedding (posted on this site) in February. Those photos were the first opportunity for a lot of us to see the interior of Tullig House. I think that the current building would have been built about 1780 around the core of an existing building that was most probably built by Henry Leader in the early 1700’s.

    Alan

    1. hi alan, that was my brother donal’s wedding. the house was built in an ‘L’ shape originally (it was the fashion of the time to make the house seem as large as possible to the person looking at it from the road). some time in the 1800s the ‘L’ was made into a square (i spotted this from old maps), and some time after that again an extension was made out the back. i wasn’t aware of the core from the 17th century, though i wonder what you mean by a core .. was it an older house that was knocked to make way for the new one? The house is in good condition inside, but it does need some modernising because it’s just plain cold in the winter (but thankfully not damp).
      i have seen your piece in the aubane historical society’s publication “A Millstreet Miscellany 3” which was great, because we never had this information. i wish my ancestors had written this stuff down, but they didn’t.

  27. Thank you all for your help. As i said I’m new to this and must consider all you have shared with me before I go further. Thank you too Lorraine re offer to scan info on Leaders in Burkes. This forum is a wonderful source of material. Also I’m so glad to know that I’m not the only one who stays up late into the night researching distant relations!

  28. Siobhan Google this….Kearney/Leader Tullig genealogy. The first item should answer some of your questions.Its entitled”selena Leader”.
    Lorraine

  29. Hello All :

    I am the Leonard (Len) Keane mentioned a couple of times on this LEADER forum. I’ve been researching the LEADER and other families for over 30 years. I guess my 3rd Cousin in NZ started something with her first post here! I’ve read all the replies and discussions with much interest. Among the families in the Millstreet area from which I directly descend are KEANE of Cluan & Keale; at least two lines of LEADER of Doonmore, Keale & also Gurtnageena/Flintfied/Mt Leader via a 1714 KEANE/LEADER marriage in Co. Clare; TARRANT of Dromsicane & Doonmore/Doonasleen; RADLEY; CHINNERY; DENNEHY; O’KEEFFE and probably FREEMAN .

    My great-grandfather, John Keane m. 14 Sept 1862 (Dromtariffe R.C.) Elizabeth, dau. of Henry Leader (b. 1790/91) by his wife Mary Tarrant, dau. of Richard Tarrant (who d. at Ballydesmond/Williamstown 25 December 1889, “age 105” – family lore suggests he was a bit older than his death certif. states, having ridden a horse to a funeral at age 110. Birth dates of his likely children place his age at death at about 115. He died doing a jig at a Christmas party! Maybe some people in the Millstreet area have heard this story from the old folks.

    My grandfather, John Leader Keane, born at Keale in 1863, emigrated to Boston, Massachusetts in 1881, after living a year in London. His four brothers also eventually emigrated to the Boston area.

    One of them, Thomas Patrick Keane, b. 1875, has a double descent ferom the Leaders and Tarrants, having married Nora, dau. of John O’LEARY, son of Jeremiah O’Leary of Glenalougha and his wife Mary, dau. of Patrick Leader (& Sarah GODSIL/GODSON) of Knocknacarracoosh, son of Leonard Leader (b. abt 1763) of Keale & Stakehill by his first wife, also named Mary TARRANT). I’m most likely descended from a second marriage of Leonard to a CHINNERY woman. His third marriage, to Sarah WHITE in 1796, is the only one mentioned in Burke’s LG.

    I have a chart in which I trace my relationship to Catherine TARRANT, late of Coolcloher, Boherbue, wife of the late Daniel GUERIN of the same. She was my 3rd cousin-twice removed. I would be happy to scan this and email it to anyone who might be interested.

    As time allows, I will post more and comment on some of the remarks made as I tackle the pros and cons of the LEADER/CHINNERY connections and origins. Maybe we can resolve some issues that long have been matters of debate.

    Cheers,

    Len Keane

  30. Nice to hear from you Len. It is very annoying when names and dates are not forthcoming.Nothing can be resolved that way.I will look up your past correspondence with me and see what, if anything, has been achieved, although I will tell you now, am firmly on side of Milton. However we will be glad to have you in this debate.

    Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

  31. Hello,

    I am fascinated by this thread. I am a direct descendent of the Stakehill Leaders as in my great grandfather is Leonard Leader Sullivan. They got the name changed subsequently from Leader Sullivan to Leader to maintain the Leader name link with the Stakehill, Mount Leader and Keale branches. My grandfather who married my Leader grandmother is the Kemmis family, so it was another old Anglo-Irish family marrying into another. I have been for the last year doing the family history on ancestry.com and sometimes have run into difficulties with the Leader connections due to the inter-family marriages and name changes.

  32. Also relating to the Chinnerys who I believe are related to some branch of the Howes in West Cork (I am well aware of the many branches of Howes. On my mother’s side there are inter-family branches of Howes who as far as I know back a few generations were in some way related to the Chinnerys. I would not be surprised if eventually that there will be a connection way back that will link my father’s family to my mother’s family 4 or 5 generations back by way of distant cousins or something.

  33. On looking at M.Leader’s chart Radleys (and Leaders) It would seem that 3 generations have been left out,between Thomas Radley of Claraghb.1610 and Francis Radley Knockraur b1665 5thggf . In tree form these 3 generations provide Francis with father grandfr and gt gfr. Father born 1635, Grandfather b 1611 (Richard(?) Radley, brother of Thomas of Claragh b 1610 and Thomas Radley,on list of Protestant settlers Bandon b 1570/5, arrived Bandon 1590.8th gt gfr.of mine. Dates, of course are speculative, but near enough. Francis Radley would appear to have a sister Jane Radley of Knockraur b.1623 married Donogh Dermot McCarthy 1677. Her son was born that same year, and Jane’s grandaughter Ellen McCarthy married my 4th gt gfr,Richard Radley but Annuled due to Ellen being an “unrecanted papist”. From what I can gather THOMAS Radley 1570/5 of Bandon was the progenitor of both the Radleys and Leaders (both Keale and Mt Leader) The 2 Radley girls,gt gdaughters of Thomas of Bandon, Marvella and Margaret md Henry and John Leader. Go through chart and find every one,including Leader is related to my 8th gt gfr Thomas Radley of Bandon.Not sure Marvella was dtr of Geo Chinnery and Alice Leader.Depends on her date of birth. George was married circa 1620 to Unknown wife and had two children John and George born in 1620s. ..Thomas and Richard and Marvella favoured names of Radleys (sigh!) Henry and John of Leaders (bigger sigh!)I researched the Australian Radleys with assistance of Historian in Ballan Vic.Aus.some years back. Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

    1. Lorraine-: Your postings of the 21st spur me on to reply to some matters relating to the RADLEY-LEADER connections. First, you refer to “Michael Leader’s Chart (Radleys & Leaders)”. To be sure we’re both on the same chart, we need to clarify. I have a chart by Michael Leader entitled “Radley MS, 1955”. Some dates on it differ from what I have on my compilation (RADLEY OF CLARAGH & KNOCKROUR), derived from seveal sources. Just as an exemplar, you refer to Donogh McDermod McCarthy who married Jane RADLEY. I have an approximate marriage date of ca. 1670, for that couple (based on another estimated marriage date for Jane’s brother Thomas RADLEY, Jr of ca. 1665. Your posts show 1677, and say she was born 1663. Are yours meant to be exact dates? If so, are they stated as such on Michael Leader’s Chart or found elsewhere? Obviously something is wrong here.

      I am in agreement that Thomas RADLEY “of Claragh” was born ca. 1610; he was known as “Alias Miller” and was living in 1680; I have his estimated marriage date to Jane TWISS as ca. 1640. This couple were parents of (1) George RADLEY, Alias Miller, “eldest son”, who m. his 1st cousin Mary-Anne TWISS.and was dead by 1718; (2) Robert RADLEY who m. Mary , dau. of Abrahan Allen of Curraghroe, vintner; (3) Thomas RADLEY. Jr. (as in par.1 above)who. m. ca. 1665 Marvella CHINNERY; and (4) Jane RADLEY who m. Doniogh McDermod McCarthy, of Dooneen.

      There may well be more childrn but these were my main concern.

      The referenve to RADLEY “alias Miller” I’m nearly certain was because they owned a wood mill. (Casey, O’Kief, etc.-Vol. 6-?)and may possible explain why you may feel there are missuing generations beyond tha point if thwey were using “Miller” as a surname. Just a thought. I haven’t researched beyond Thomas of Claragh.

      Finally, I’m wondeing abouit your earlier about “Richard” being a “Radley Name”! On the above lineage, if you go by my chart you find the parents of Jane TWISS were RICHARD TWISS & Frances BRODERICK. I have a note “Richard Twiss to Ireland ca. 1640”, so I suspect he was indeed a Cromwellian. They had a son, Frank TWISS who m. ca. 1645 Jane PARSONS. They were parents of the Mary-ANNE TWISS who m. George RADLEY, “alias Miller”. So, BOTH children of RICHARD TWISS are ancestral to Leaders of Keale (thru Mary-Anne TWISS & George RADLEY) and Mount Leader (thru Thomas RADLEY, Jr. & Marvella CHINNERY) whose daus. Margaret RADLEY & Jane RADLEY married respectively(the two brothers), Henry LEADER in 1689 (he d. 1738) and John LEADER ca. 1690, who built Keale House.

      If you or any reader have more precise dating on anything here please let me know, I’m open to any corrections if you have a reliable source.
      MY SOURCES for ABOVE-:
      – Burke, LG, 1850 Edn., Vol. II, p. 1445 (TWISS)
      – Leader, Michael, FIGRS, ‘Radley MS’, 1955
      – McCarthy, S.T., “MacCarthys of Munster”, p. 235
      – Keane, L.M. – my LEADER Chart Notes.

      Len

  34. Hi Len The M.L. chart I am referring to was given by YOU to Ed Rodley according to the front page. I received it from him several years ago.Jane Radley’s bro.Thomas died 1750/1780(writing is very small and cramped) and difficult to see. born (estimate) 1700 which would be in accordance with Francis’ Marriage to Cath Hall 1696., Francis would have been married maybe at age 20/30 bringing bdate back to 1666/1676. Also on chart Francis was married first to Jane Twiss and it is also recorded in Heraldic Commoners of gt Brit and Ire..Burkes that he was md to her.Do we have same Jane R and Thomas R.? Was Jane md to D.D.McCarthy his (Francis’ )aunt instead of sister? Incidentally Jane’s marriage is in Burkes under Morrogh p866 stating she was dtr of JOHN RADLEY of KNOCKRAUR.The ALIAS MILLER is referred to in papers as his wife’s name. Have see that “alias” in same context in registry of Deeds .by B.Eustace.RICHARD is a Radley name as is THOMAS. See article by Rosemary ffolliott in Irish Ancestry. One Richard in Keale branch (Marg.Radleys son Richard Radley Leader named after (no doubt) her brother , my gt gfr, Richard Henry and 2 in Mt Leader Richard of Oldcastle and Richard of Bishopgate , descendents of Thom.Radley. The generation gap, as is birth dates, is as I said speculative on Francis side. In MLs papers he acknowledges Fracis was first heard of in Knockraur but earlier generations were there before.I can send chart if you wish. I maintain that it is likely that THOMAS RADLEY , Eng.Prot settler at Bandon 1590 b. appox 1570/5 is my 8th gt gfr. Do you have any info. that will dispute this? Anyway twas nice to have someone who could supply names and dates.I am writing this without looking up to confirm info which I will do later Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

    1. Lorraine-:

      Statements like the following have me mystified! WHERE is it stated that “JOHN RADLEY of KNOCKRAUR.The ALIAS MILLER is referred to in papers as his wife’s name” ??

      I asked in a recent post where the evidence is for the existence of a a “JOHN” Radley at that early date. I have no response to date from anyone.

      WHERE is the statement (reference – i.e., “Papers”) that refers to “alias MILLER” as a wife’s name?

      This is not a matter of discussion. Either you have the answers or you don’t. I’m willing to accept the “truth” if you have it!

      Len

  35. Len In haste to answer you I omitted to say information on Jane Radley/DDMC was supplied by a descendent of Rich.Francis Radley who also gave me some McCarthy papers which an acquaintance of his is researching. The marriage of Jane Twiss to Francis R. is I think on Twiss (Burkes) I have large quantity of papers and takes time to find. The Thomas Iam referring to in first few sentences was Thomas e.s.o Francis R. Was Jane, Francis’ aunt then? The chart is hard to read. Francis appears to be a few generations from Thomas of Claragh. Incidentally I did find confirmation of sorts re Thom of C .What dates do you have re Francis Rs birth.? My estimate would be 1660/1670, based on marriage 1696? So would not his father (John?Thomas?Richard?) be a missing generation circa1630s ? (His 2nd son was a JOHN).Obviously Thomas of Claragh was not his father/.grandfather as he was born 1610 confirmed. It would seem to me Thom Claragh’father would possibly be Thomas(?) RAdley born 1570 Bandon Prot.settler and that T of Claragh(1610) had a brother ????Radley who was grandfather of Francis. I did say they were speculative conclusions likewise dates, but at least I have tried to fill the gap.,which I feel is there.

    Lorraine http://www.radkleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

  36. Hi,

    Because of the existence of John Radley of Knockraur, father of Jane who married Donogh McDermod McCarthy, & probable father of Thomas Radley who married Marvella, causes me to think that Thomas of Claragh & his family are cousins of the Knockraur Radley’s, ie: John is brother of Thomas Snr of Clarragh. Thomas Jnr of Claragh would therefore be a cousin of Thomas who married Marvella.

    Certainly the approx dates relating to the Jane & Donogh McDermod McCarthy family need to be remodified. I’ve seen Janes birthdate as both 1623 & 1663, both of which which must be wrong if their son was born 1677, with another approx marriage date of 1650….!

    Can I ask for clarification that there were two Jane Twiss’ who married Radley’s, one who married Thomas Snr of Claragh & one who married Francis Radley?much later marriage

    I think that Marvella was a daughter of George Chinnery and his much later marriage to Alice Leader, after his first wife died.

    Cheers.
    Milton.

  37. Len Ref to Richard being Radley name was intended to point out that if Rich.Leader Ironworksmgr was progenitor of Mt Leader and Keale,why was the name not perpetuated in Keale and Mt L. descendents. I did not mean Richard was an exclusive name. I think you midsunderstood or I was unclear imy intentions. If you do go thru chart it seems to me all roads lead back to Francis and there fore the first Thomas(?) R of EnglProt Settlers.L.

  38. Milton Why would Jane Radley of Knockraur (father John of K.) be the daughter of Thomas of Claragh(if she is reputedly sister of the Thomas R. who married Marvella Chinnery.Thomas Radley was son of Thomas of Claragh) Wouldn’t Knockraur signify that she belongs to Francis Radley’s (5xgt gfr) lot? I agree that Thomas of Claragh and Francis of Knockraur have some degree of relationship. I received some info from Radley researcher who thinks Thomas of C. and Francis of K. are respectively Uncle and nephew. I think, and only speculation, that is more likely Great uncle and great nephew. I note the other Thomas of K was md to Margaret Purdon and also Sarah Franklin. Were children M.Purdon’s or Sarah. I found Sarah married to Sullivan with name Radley nee Franklyn .Same Sarah Radley??in Casey. Bit confusing is Casey. Lorraine

  39. I hope I won’t be adding to any confusion, but I thought I would share some of my own educated guesses. I apologize in advance if I have gotten anything glaringly wrong:

    “Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain & Ireland” for 1853 (pg 1444)

    This Pedigree lists three Radley Esquires but does not designate Knockrour

    1. Jane Twiss & ____Radley Esq
    2. Mary Anne Twiss & Radley Esq
    3. Richard Twiss & Eliza Radley daughter of Thomas Esq of C. Cork

    “Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain & Ireland” for 1863 (pg 1553)

    This Pedigree lists two Radley marriages and connects them to Knockrour

    1. Jane Twiss & Francis Radley, Esq of Knockrour, C. Cork
    2. Richard Twiss & Eliza Radley daughter of Thomas Esq of Knockrour, C. Cork

    The reign of Charles I occurs 1625 – 1649. The pedigree states that Richard Twiss came to Ireland “towards the close of the reign.” Therefore, lets conjecture the 1640s. My hypothesis is as follows:

    Richard Twiss comes to Ireland in the early 1640s and meets and falls in love with the beautiful Frances Broderick, a relation of the Earl of Powys. They get married and have a daughter Jane who marries a Radley Esq (of Knockrour). Lets say Jane is born in 1640 and at the age of 20 she marries a Radley: this would put us at 1660. This Radley and Jane Twiss have a daughter named Jane Radley, who at about the age of 17 marries Donough McCarthy of Dooneen. She is named after her mother etc. According to Michael Leader’s tree Francis Radley married Catherine Hall in 1696 and so it seems unlikely that he would be in the marrying game during the time when a daughter of Richard Twiss and Frances Broderick would be of the most practical age.

    Now the 1853 pedigree does not mention Knockrour but the 1863 pedigree does. Therefore, circumstantial evidence would suggest that the 1853 pedigree lacks specificity in place, but makes up for it with an added Radley marriage. I hypothesize that this first, “added” marriage was to a Radley of Knockrour that fits with the time of a known Radley of Knockrour, namely John.

    If the assumption is correct that Francis Radley’s father was Thomas Radley and Marvella Chinnery, then perhaps John Radley and Jane Twiss did not have a male heir and with their daughter Jane MacCarthy happily living her life in Dooneen, Knockrour is inherited by a nephew or grandnephew Francis, who marries a Twiss girl named Mary Anne. When Francis then remarries to Catherine Hall and has a son, the Knockrour lands come back into the lineal line of the original holders of Knockrour through a marriage between Jane MacCarthy’s (nee Radley) granddaughter Ellen and everyone is happy…

    I think conjectured dates, practicality of land inheritance and names are all key clues. John Radley of Knockrour is of marrying age at the time that Jane Twiss is marriageable. He owns Knockrour and the Twiss family favours marriage with the Knockrour Radleys. Francis Radley would fit with a young daughter of Frank Twiss and Jane Parsons, who had a grandson that married a Radley girl in 1756. If this grandson was thirty in 1756, let’s say, then his parents, Martin Twiss & Catherine Williams, are married prior to 1726 (and he is a fifth son of eight siblings). If they married in 1700 and Martin Twiss was was thirty at the time of his marriage then he was born c1670. Therefore, we can perhaps place a marriage between Martin’s parents, Frank Twiss and Jane Parsons, at around 1670. Their daughter, MaryAnne, would therefore be at an age to be a first wife to our Francis Radley in the early 1690s before his marriage to Catherine Hall in 1696.

    There are a lot of “ifs” here but in terms of
    Names: Jane Twiss having a daughter named Jane Radley fits nicely
    Property: Knockrour and John Radley of Knockrour c1660

  40. Sorry forgot to mention, Jane Radley and Donogh MacCarthy have a son Denis born in 1677. Therefore, I am using that date as a means to place Jane Radley as being at the right age to be a daughter of Jane Twiss and John Radley.

  41. I would speculate that the Radley tree should look similar to what I have below, however I have no evidence that it does, other than trying to put jigsaw pieces together.

    I would certainly appreciate anyones thoughts or alterations to this.

    Cheers.
    Milton.

    1 Thomas RADLEY d: in of BANDON. Co. CORK. Ireland.
    . 2 Thomas RADLEY b: in of Claragh More. Co. CORK. Ireland. d: Bef. 1718
    ….. +Jane (MILLER ???)or TWISS ???
    ….. 3 Thomas RADLEY b: in of Claragh More. Co. CORK. Ireland.
    ….. 3 George RADLEY d: Bef. 1718
    ……… +Mary Anne TWISS
    ….. 3 Robert RADLEY b: Abt. 1658 in of Gortmore. BANTEER. Co. CORK. Ireland.
    ……… +Mary ALLEN b: in of CURRAGHROE. Co. CORK. Ireland.

    . 2 John RADLEY b: in of KNOCKRAUR. Ireland.
    ….. 3 Jane RADLEY b: 1623 in of KNOCKRAUR. Ireland. d: (Dates must be wrong)
    ……… +Donough Dermot McCARTHY b: 1619 m: 1650 d: 1725
    ……… 4 Denis Esq. McCARTHY b: 1677 in of DOONEEN. Ireland. d: 21 June 1761
    …………. +Jane BARRETT
    ……… 4 Daniel McCARTHY
    ….. 3 Thomas RADLEY b: in of KNOCKRAUR. Ireland.
    ……… +Marvella CHINNERY b: in CASTLE COR. CORK. Ireland.
    ……… 4 Francis RADLEY d: December 1749 in of KNOCKRAUR. Co. CORK. Ireland.
    …………. +Jane TWISS
    ……… *2nd Wife of Francis RADLEY:
    …………. +Catherine HALL m: 1696 d: Aft. 1750
    ……… 4 Jane RADLEY
    …………. +John LEADER b: in of KEALE. Co. CORK. Ireland. m: 1690
    ……… 4 Margaret/Marvella/Mary RADLEY
    …………. +Henry LEADER b: in of Mt. LEADER. CORK. Ireland. m: Bef. 20 March 1689 in Co. CORK. Ireland. d: 1738

    1. All-:

      First, I think we should forget the CHINNERY confusion for now and get some of the LEADER/RADLEY lines in chronological order. I agree with you, Lorraine, that the ‘Radley MS’ of 1955 is very hard to follow in some places. My copy is now in deep storage. Had you mentioned the source earlier I might have been able to retrieve it for comparison. I know I went over everything with a magnifying glass and was able to read most of it, and it was the basis for the early parts of my Chart (RADLEY OF CLARAGH & KNOCKROUR).

      I just checked Dr. Albert E. Casey’s ‘O’Kief, etc.’ series, Vol. 6 (which I have, along with Vol. 15). Possibly you’ve seen it already, but here is an early deed abstract from Item #1996 relating to lands including Claraghmore (same place or adjacent to Claragh). I recall seeing Claraghmor and Claraghbeg in some records. Simply ‘Large Claragh” and “Small Claragh”. These items are themselves often difficult to follow, and are abstracts of “Memorials” in the Registry of Deeds (IRD) , Dublin. Some of the Memorials don’t contain much more info. There are no original complete deeds and nothing at all prior to 1705.- at least not in the IRD. Here is one containing RADLEY info-”
      =========
      “23.449.14022 – Lease & Release 18 & 19 March 1718. Whereby Wm. Kenny, Cullen, & Wm. K., Jr., his eldest son, in cons. L 300 (not sure if 300 or 500 – LK), made over to Thos. Mahan, Cork city, whiggmaker, – the lands of Claraghmore, Cooleknockane, containuing 556 a., 3r., formerly in the poss. of King Charles II; John Baron of Kingston; Walter Harris; Thos. Radley, alias Miller; George Radley alias Miller his son and heir; and Jane Radley, widow of sd. Thos. R; Edward Kenny father of Ed. Kenny; and situated. in Barony of Duhallow. To hold subj. to redemption. Wit. : Francis Adams, Cork city, apprentice to sd. Thos. Mahan; Thos. Barry, Cork city, scrivener; Nicholas White, Cork city; & James Ryan, Macroom, Apothecary.”
      =========
      One interpretation, considering the words “formerly in the poss. of ..” may suggest that all those mentioned were gone from Claraghmore by 1718, and that Jane (TWISS), widow of Thomas RADLEY of Claragh, came into possession after his death, and all were probably dead by 1718. It looks like the deed was from ‘Kenny to Kenny’. It would be necessary to get a copy of the memorial from Registry of Deeds, Dublin. They are filed as “Grantor to Grantee”

      So, my chart showing George RADLEY, alias MILLER death date as “Dead by 1718” seems likely. And note that Jane (TWISS) wife of Thomas Radley (the man b. ca. 1610), if she were still living in 1718, even if she married very young, would have been quite elderly by 1718. I would say she married Thomas RADLEY of Claragh about 1640, and my dates remain credible.

      I’m still wondering if we’re looking at different charts or whether Lorraine’s copy differs significantly from what I have compiled using the same source, plus others, and possibly yours is annotated by Ed Rodley or someone else.

      Another point that needs clarification is the existence of a “JOHN RADLEY”. On my Chart I have a note regarding Jane RADLEY who m. Donogh McDermod McCarthy (about 1670) and showing her as a dau. of Thomas RADLEY. “alias MILLER” of Claragh (b. ca. 1610). My note reads -: ” One source states this Jane Radley was a dau. of a JOHN Radley, but no John has been found in this family at this early date; probably a misinterpretation of “Tom” as “John”.

      I spent a lot of time trying to find a JOHN RADLEY who would fit chronologically. If there is any evidence other than the “one” I mentioned, I would be interested.

      If there is substantial evidence that this “John RADLEY” existed, please provde a solid reference and I will certainly review my conclusion.

      And, as I’ve written, I believe the “Alias Miller” has nothing to do with a spouse’s surname. There are references (which I can find) that they owned a wood MILL, and it’s much more likely that’s why they were so designated locally. I recall Michael Leader opined that ‘Miller’ might be a spouse’s name, but I’ve never found a male in Ireland so named. A wife may sometimes continue the name of a prior husband, but not the reverse.

      More later!

      Len

  42. Milton and Glen Thank you. Would like to say all Radley/Leader genealogy circa 1600 is speculative or we would not be doing this.Sources are difficult There IS a gap of 3 generations between Francis R of Kn. and Thomas(?) Radley of Bandon, remembering Radleys did not arrive in Cork till 1590 to take advantage of Phane Beecher’s plantation .(I know about the two other Radley marriages unconnected to my Radleys, noted on ML’s chart)Incidentally, Phane is my 10th great grandfather.Thomas Jr of Claragh. b c.1640 married Marvella Chinnery 1665 and his line is clearly marked down to 2 Radley girls marrying Leader bros.so it is unlikely that Thomas Jr.Claragh is father of Francis as Glen suggested.As to Jane …. Why is she called Jane R of Knockraur with father J of Kn. if she is allegedly of Claragh line. If her birthdate was 1663, what is unusual for a girl in 1600s being married at 14 to an older man? Thomas R of Claragh was,in my opinion, great uncle of Francis and Francis 2nd cousin of Thomas of Claragh junior who mar. Marvella (Too many Thomases)of course, open to correction. Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

  43. Len Maybe T.Radley Claragh did own a mill. I am not disputing that. My understanding of ALIAS re GENEALOGY is…If ancestors had right to tenancy of land, then in order to benefit by inheritance of this right, you and ancestors needed to maintain same surname, but if a woman,obviously children inherits husband’s surname, so ALIAS would be used purely to maintain Surname under which you had your tenancy rights. Looks like Jane Miller had a some land of her own.

    1. Lorraine-:

      The word “alias’ means simply “otherwise”. I’ve seen it applied by females in Ireland where it could mean either a birth name (nee) or a surname previously used, as that of a former husband. But in the case of Thomas Radley “alias Miller” I don’t see how that would apply to a male unless he might have been Scottish, inheriting a wife’s armorial bearings, title, and/or succeeding to property requiring change of surname (as in Scottish law). In the latter cases, the surname normally was actually changed and continued thereafter. I don’t find that to be the case here.

      There were MILLERs in Co. Cork, but I’ve reviewed many from that time frame and haven’t found any that might match Thomas Radley ‘alias MIller’ and/or his eldest son, George Radley ‘alias MIller’.

      So, the logical conclusion, as I see it, is that both father and son were owners of a wood mill and that’s how they were known locally, possibly for political reasons at the time, or simply that they were “millers” by trade.

      The RADLEY of Claragh (b. ca. 1610) could very well be identical with Thomas Radley, the Bandon settler. I don’t know of any other RADLEY family in Ireland at tht time and place, so again logic says they might be the same man. Are you still saying there are missing generations?

      Certainly ALL RADLEYs in the Millstreet area are related as cousins in some degree or other, just as the LEADERs are. I don’t know exactly when the Radleys came to possess Knockrour but we know Francis Radley was there by 1796 when he married Catherine HALL, dau. of John HALL, “of Loughtermore”, “Sr. of Ballycounigan” (will 1717).

      Len

  44. Radley/Leader manuscript transcribed by Ed.Rodley 2001.In his words VERBATIM. Another instance of ALIAS in M.L’s chart is “Henry Leader on behalf of his wife Mary Leader Alias Radley.” Indisputedly she was NEE Radley.(Just an example re property.. Nothing to do with present discussion)
    Seems to point to Tenancy rights.I agree with you, Jane Miller married Thomas Radley of Claragh.1640.First to live at Knockraur was Francis Radley.Weiply indicates family were there earlier.Just by the by, if first Radley was an Englisman and arrived 1590, I cannot see why the name “JOHN” or MILLER is uncommon. I have a gt gfr in Bandon by name of MILLS or Miller.Maybe he owned a Mill too. Lorraine

  45. Hi Lorraine,

    I was in contact with you before a few years ago about your Radleys of Cork hosted by bigpondposting.com. For some reason no links to any links from anywhere on the web to any sites relating to Radleys of Cork will not load up for me either on my machine at home or in work. I have only managed to load cached copies of the pages. Is there some sort of access I need to have. Do I need to register to some web host.

    I know from looking at your website it is very interesting and the information you have there is very relevant re the Radleys and the Leaders.

    Since I emailed you a few years ago (with a different email address when you granted me access) I have changed computer and email address.

    Thanks for any assistance you can offer.

  46. RE Liz Kemmis.. I am sorry. I cannot offer you any advice why you cannot contact Radleys of Cork site. A Techician might be able to render some assistance.I hope you get things sorted out.

    Re FRANCIS RADLEY of KNOCKRAUR. Francis was a favourite TWISS name. Perhaps Burke mixed up 2 Francis Radleys of Knockraur e.g.father and son As no date given in Burkes it is possible that there was a Francis Sr married to Jane Twiss (whose father was Richard Twiss md to Francis Broderick.) Burke has been known to make such mistakes. I will state this is purely conjecture, but I do have access to a TWISS descendent. Proves nothing, but is an interesting point.

    Lorraine

  47. I see that Michael Leader has Marvella (sometimes Mary or Margaret) & Jane Radley, the sisters who married the Leader Bros. as daughters of Thomas of Claragh, but I’ve seen most references that they were daughters of Thomas Radley of Knockraur. Is Thomas of Claragh & Thomas of Knockraur the same person ?? I’d presume them to be different people. As Francis was also of Knockraur, I tend towards them all being of the Knockraur line, along with Jane who married McCarthy, as referred to by Burkes as being daughter of John, who is the earliest Knockraur reference I’ve come across. This is my logic behind my tree, whether it be correct or not.
    Perhaps someone has more to either prove or disprove my theory.

    It might well be that John has been confused with Thomas by name, who knows?

    However what is clear (I hope) is that these Claragh Radley’s are related to the Knockraur ones.

    Cheers.

    Milton.

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