Genealogy – Leaders

We are an active, retired couple visiting Millstreet for the second time while staying for a few days at Killarney. I know a great deal about my ancestors, the Leaders, who were from Millstreet, my ancestor owning the Leader house on Clara Mountain which was in a dilapidated state when we visited in 2003. I know of no-one actually living in Millstreet with the Leader name. My third cousin told me that I would be related to all of them there to some degree. I would like to meet some of them to say “hullo.” Way back, the Leaders and the O’Keefes were related as well. Anyone out there doing genealogy? Would you like to make contact?
Margaret Kaiser.
email:

211 thoughts on “Genealogy – Leaders”

  1. Hi

    If still around pop into Wordsworth’s bookshop in Millstreet and get ‘The famed hill of Clara; and ‘ A Millstreet Miscellany (3)’ Each has items on the Leaders

    Jack Lane

    1. To Jack Lane.

      I too have an ancestor from Millstreet – Andrew Denahy (many spelling variants of surnmae) who was married to Mary Cleary and believed to have lived at 14 Coach Road (Griffiths Valuation). I need to check the Parish records for Millstreet but Millstreet is not listed in the “Irish Family History Foundation” data base although Macroom and Banteer are. Do you know where the parish records are kept? Also can a view of the registers be arranged? I visit Ireland each year and will be in Millstreet again in October.

    1. Hi Margaret,

      If you find that you have more information on the Leader families than what’s in those publications let me know as I am keen to collect and publish as much information as possible on all aspects of Millstreet’s history.

      Jack

  2. Yes I will and of course I know a lot about the Leaders when they immigrated to New Zealand as my great grandparents, great aunt and Patrick, my great grandfather’s brother did in 1863 and 1872. Are you the librarian within the museum in Millstreet? The person who was head of the museum was away on holiday when I arrived there in 2003.

    Margaret

    1. Hi Margaret

      Do you know about Nicholas Leader and his children who emigrated (from Millstreet) to Tasmania in 1838. I believe some of them went to NZ.

      My mother is a descendant of his daughter Sarah Christina Leader who married a Chapman in Tasmania. Some of their family later went to NZ.

      I live in the UK but am a New Zealander. Thought I might visit Millstreet sometime in the future too!

  3. Thanks Sarah. The names are not of my direct descendants but could be Gt Grand uncles or cousins several times removed. However, I know of no- one who went to Australia, so it’s probably another unconnected branch. My few came directly to New Zealand and to America.

    Margaret

    1. Hi Margaret

      I think they are eventually part of the same family. Mine from Henry Leader, b. 1670 Mt Leader & Margaret Radley.

      Anyway, hope you are enjoying yourself in Cork!

      Linda

  4. Hi Linda, yes they must be if you are descended from Henry & Margaret Radley. I am descended actually from Henry’s brother, John, who lived at Keale house but I still consider Mount Leader as the ancestral home of the Leaders. Who went to Australia and when? That would be very interesting, most probably the later ones whom I perhaps don’t know of!? I hope you can fill me in. By the way I am not enjoying myself in Cork. I am still firmly planted in New Zealand until 1 July. On 31 July we will have a car to visit Millstreet. Where in the U.K. are you?

    Margaret

  5. Hello Margaret. I am Linda’s mother and a descendant of Sarah Christina Leader. I live in Katikati NZ near Tauranga, are you going to be anywhere near there on your travels in NZ? Would be good to meet you.

    Dawn Smith

  6. Thank you for your email. Well Dawn, I actually live down here in Christchurch and this is where I’ll be until we fly to Britain on 1 July but I’ll ask my 3rd cousin in America about Sarah Christina Leader but I don’t think he’s ever mentioned her and although he’s gone sideways in his genealogy he is mainly researching the direct line – enough for a very big book. He’s revising and adding to his 1984 version. I’ll let you know when I hear back. I’ll send him the email now.
    Margaret

  7. Hi Margaret

    The information I have is from Ancestry.com where there are a number of other family trees with Henry Leader and Margaret Radley in them.

    Margaret Radley 1675 & Henry Leader 1675
    Henry Leader 1705 Cork & Christabella Philpot 1710
    Henry Leader 1750, Tullig, Cork & Ellen 1768
    Nicholas Leader 1793 Tullig, d 1871 NSW & Eliza Ellis 1800 Cork, d. Springmount 1837
    Sarah Christina Leader 1821 Tullig Cork (died 1894 Hobart, Tasmania) & Henry John Chapman 1820 Shoreditch London, (died 1897 Dunedin, Otago)
    Joshua Rueben Chapman 1852 (Hobart)& Minnie Baird b. Dublin (both d. NZ)
    William Perkins Chapman & Margaret McKenzie
    Clifford H. Chapman b 1920 NZ
    Mum 🙂

    Nicholas Leader went to Hobart with all of his family in 1838. He is married to another Elizabeth when he emigrates.

    Hope that is of interest. Linda

  8. Hi Margaret,
    I am also descended from the Leaders, who are all related if they come from Cork.
    I am descended from Sarah Christiana’s daughter Amanda Eliza Chapman.
    When in Millstreet, a visit to the old Kilmeedy churchyard is a must as this has the Leader tomb where the Leaders of Mt Leader and Tullig are buried.
    I would be most grateful if the inscriptions could be transcribed.
    I’m not sure if the Leaders of Keale are here also.
    Cheers.
    Milton.
    WHANGAREI.

    1. More on the LEADERS.
      The estate of Mt Leader was passed from Henry Leader who married Margaret Radley to his eldest son John, who’s son Edward became heavily encumbered, & Edwards son John sold it back to William Leader who was son of Henry’s son Henry who married Christabella Philpott.
      Williams son Nicholas Philpott Leader acquired the Castlecor estate from Christabella’s brother Nicholas.
      Tullig was passed down from Henry (& Christabella) for three generations to his Grandson Henry who died in 1836, via son Henry, & it appears Thomas Leader (afterwards of Ashgrove), probably a brother transferred it to Abraham Morris.
      Another brother Nicholas transferred his inheritances to Thomas before emigrating to Sydney Australia in 1838 with his family after his first wife died. He remarried Elizabeth Plummer in Sydney.
      Hery Leader who married Margaret Radley had a brother John who was progenerator of the Keale family.
      It appears that John & Patrick who emigrated to New Zealand had a brother who also went to Australia named Eugene.
      Cheers.
      Milton.

      1. Hi Milton
        The Henry from Mt Leader would all be my cousins many times removed, great great grand uncles and aunts. According to my 3rd cousin who is an historian and genealogist in the U.S., there were 2 brothers who came back from Maine about 1610(the father was thought to be Richard, a Cromwellian soldier) but he died in the U.S. and his wife came back with 2 sons, Henry and John. I guess they must’ve lived in the original Mt Leader house whatever that looked like at that time then some time down the track Henry built or rebuilt the Mt Leader home and his brother John started the Keale branch from which I am directly from. That’s how I understand it. However I will send the relationships to my cousin and get his input, although he is more interested and knowledgeable about our direct line. At the end you mention a Patrick coming to N.Z. I don’t think it is MY great grand uncle, Patrick Leader because he was the brother of my great grandfather, John Leader so descended from the Keale branch. He had married a Margaret in London and I am not aware of him going to Australia first. I don’t think there was an Eugene either. I might try and get to the Kilmeedy tombstone that must be written in Irish and try and translate it at home, but I’m not very hopeful. I think the gravesites I’ve visited before were actually situated next to the Church of Ireland right in Millstreet town and possibly another churchyard around the road from that one. I’ll have another look when I get there.
        Margaret (Christchurch)

  9. Hi Margaret,
    I can correct the information about Richard, but then I also stand corrected myself on what I posted about Eugene.
    Richard was a manager for an ironworks in Ireland about the same time as John Leader the Cromwellian soldier arrived in Ireland and then was established in Kinsale.
    Richard was from another family of Leaders & subsequently went to Maine in USA.
    He left no descendants in Ireland.
    I think Burkes confuse these two different families.
    John had two son’s, who went on to populate Cork & Kerry.
    After John died, his wife Alice remarried George Chinnery, & their daughter Marvella (married a Radley), was the mother of the two Radley sisters who married Henry Leader of Mt Leader & John Leader of Keale.
    Regarding Eugene, he was a cousin (most Likely) of John & Patrick. I didn’t check my data closely enough when I posted last time.
    I might be corrected on this, but you might be able to clarify, John & Patricks father was Timothy Leader, & and I can’t find anything to conclusively point to who was Timothy’s father, but was most likely Patrick Leader who married Sarah Godson.
    My email address is <email> if you want to reply privately.

    Cheers.
    Milton.

    1. Hi Milton
      I am a direct descendant of George Chinnery b. abt 1600 in England, who married Mrs Alice Leader (m abt 1625) whose children were John, George and Marvella Chinnery. I have learned that Alice was previously married to John Leader, but have no further information prior to that time either for John Chinnery or for John Leader. As you seem to know more about the Leader connection can you give me any background as to where their immigrations to Ireland can be found? Should you wish to tie in to the Chinnery lines from that date until now I have collated a lot of information but am sorely lacking information prior to abt 1640.

  10. Milton! Unfortunately my email to you with information came back to me saying it couldn’t find the server. I clicked on what you gave me so I didn’t copy it incorrectly. Perhaps you can try it again. Margaret K

    1. Hi Margaret,
      Our server is experiencing SPAM filter problems at the moment, so it could be the reason why.
      If in the meantime you could just reply through the list I’ll pick up the messages here,
      Cheers, Milton.

  11. I am a decendant of Julia M. Murphy born in Millstreet in 1881 daughter of Timothy Murphy(1856) and Mary or Bridget Kiley 1858. I haven’t been able to get any information other than that after a long search. Do you think you can help me?
    Best Regards.
    Charlotte

  12. From my 3rd cousin for you Charlotte. I hope this helps.

    The only Murphy you may recall was in my book (p. 28.0.6). An Albina Leader Murphy was involved in the lawsuit in 1841 over the Leader townland of Glenalougha (Lakevale) which was held by descendants of Thomas Leader, eldest son of Patrick Leader (son of Leonard of Stakehill and Mary Tarrant – his first wife, NOT our Mary Tarrant, but same family). The lawsuit followed the death ogf John Leader (Jr.) of Keale House in 1839 and of his father the following year. This suit was brought by Timothy Murphy, undoubtedly an in-law of Albina Leader Murphy (daughter of John Leader, Sr.), against John Leader. M.D., son of Leonard of Stakehill.

    The late Mr. Michael Leader of London wrote me that this was an attempt to break the entail on Keale lands (i.e. senior male line descendants only could inherit, and only Protestants). Under the will of John Leader, Jr. he bequeathed the lands of Glenalougha, among others, to John Leader, M.D.. The court found for the defendant, John Leader, M.D. and the lands involved came into his possession, including Keale House.

    This was written up in “Irish Law Reports”, Vol. IV, 1842. I have a copy. Unfortunately it dowes not get into any other relationships. However, there was a “Jackson Leader, Yeoman” who testified thet he had “lived many years with old Mr. Leader”. I have no idea who he might have been, but the rank of “yeoman” may indicate a naval rank, but might also have referred to a local militia member. I wonder now if he might have been another son of Richard Leader and Ann Ronayne, who re-married a sailor who may have raised the child. That theory would make him a brother to our Henry Leader. It is significant that immediately after this lawsuit, Henry Leader and his family did move to Keale from Doonmore/Doonasleen. Maybe a family agreement to keep peace!

    Hope this helps. I can clarify more if it’s confusing. Can Charlotte recall any more or maybe recognize some things from this information?

  13. I am looking for information about John Hall Leader. He was born on 2 January 1828 in Millstreet. He was certainly a Catholic–educated by the Christian Brothers. He emigrated about 1850 to the US.

  14. A message for you Harry Connors. We are not related to my knowledge to the John Hall Leader. The Leaders I know were Protestants and later married into the Catholic faith. Good luck!

    1. Well, for many years I’ve believed that John Hall Leader’s ancestors were Protestants who later married into the Catholic faith. His birth in Millstreet was mentioned several times in documents in the US. There’s even a 1917 letter written by Lt. Col. John Leader of Keale to John Hall’s oldest son which speculates that Col. Leader’s grandfather and John Hall’s father were brothers. This exact relationship doesn’t match with other information, but I wouldn’t be surprized to learn that John Hall was a descendent of Leonard Leader of Stakehill.

      The problem is that I can’t find a record of John Hall’s birth. The information I have was recorded much later in the US. Nor do I have good evidence as to the names of his parents. His oldest son and oldest daughter recalled, in 1917–25 years after John Hall died, that their grandfather was John Leader. Some have speculated that John Hall’s mother was a Dorothy Hall based on John Hall’s middle name and the name of his oldest daughter, but that is pure speculation.

      So, I’m sure that John Hall Leader was born in Millstreet and was almost certainly related to the other Leaders of Millstreet. It would be too much of a coincidence otherwise.

      1. Harry One of my great grandfathers FRANCIS RADLEY married CATHERINE HALL in 1696.JOHN PURDON md MARY HALL,her sister 1700. The daughter(of John Purdon) MARGARET PURDON md THOMAS RADLEY of KNOCKRAUR 1726 at Millstreet.In turn Thomas Radleys dtr JANE RADLEY married JOHN LEADER OF KEALE c1749. Reckon you have good chance of being related to me. There is a mix of RC and CI in Radley/Leader connection.

        Lorraine Egan

  15. Hi Harry,
    As far as I can tell all of the John’s who are descended from Leonard Leader of Stakehill are accounted for.
    I haven’t as yet accounted for descendants of Leonard’s brother John, so this could be a possibility.
    The only other real likelihood is that he may be descended from John Leader of Mt Leader who was born circa 1698. This branch however seems to have moved from the Millstreet area by and large.
    Thomas Leader of Ashgrove also had a son John born sometime after 1818, who’s descendants I haven’t located, but I think he lived in Cork city and not migrated to America.
    So my bet at this stage is with Leonards brother John, perhaps someone can fill us in on his descendants ??
    Cheers.
    Milton.

  16. There are two pages on my website that might interest anyone who has a Leader of Millstreet connection. I suggest turning off your speakers if you don’t like midi music.

    http://www.connorshistory.com/Connors/JLeader.html This letter was written in 1918 (I mistakenly said 1917 above) by Lt. Colonel John Leader of Keale House to William Leader the oldest son of John Hall Leader. There is also a cover letter written by William to his oldest sister Dora (Dorothy) Leader Carroll and Dora’s handwritten notes and comments. William’s letter and Dora’s notes are just about the only thing I have about John Hall Leader’s family in Millstreet. Col. Leader’s letter describes the effects of WWI on the Leader family.

    An interesting item in Col. Leader’s letter is his mention that General Patrick Ronayne Cleburne (CSA) was a member of the family. Col. Leader gets the relationship wrong, General Cleburne was a second cousin twice removed and not a great uncle, and he gets the few facts about General Cleburne’s life wrong. However, General Cleburne was an excellent general who defeated both “Fighting Joe” Hooker and William Tecumseh Sherman when each had far more men than he had.

    http://www.connorshistory.com/Connors/LeaderTrip.html This is a letter written by John D. J. Moore in 1972 to his brother and sister concerning a “Leader trip” he made to Cork and Millstreet. At the time, Mr. Moore was the American Ambassador to Ireland and his brother, Richard A. Moore, would be appointed American Ambassador to Ireland by the first President Bush. The letter is not actually signed and I deduced that Ambassador Moore was the author based on internal evidence. This was confirmed by descendants of the Moore family and, last year, by Rev. Liam Leader whom Ambassador Moore describes meeting in the letter. The mother of the Ambassadors Moore was Julia Leader Moore and her family was Millstreet Leader.

    1. Harry ..General Patrick Ronayne Cleburne was 2nd cousin of my 2 gt gm Alicia Crooke Lindsey who married Thomas Radley esq . Alicia was sister of his grandmother Anne Crooke Ronayne. John of Keale married my 3 gt aunt Margaret Radley in 1836. According to a chart by M.Leader I have dual descent from Chinnery,& Leader and also Radley/Hall from early 1600s. An early Radley was Jane Radley b.1623 who married Donough Dermot McCarthy. I assume they were R.C.
      Lorraine

  17. Hi , i am looking for any info at all on my ancestors who were supposed to have come from mill street. They will have emigrated on the Swansea cork ferry to Wales in the 1860’s and then worked on the railway lines as a plate layer living in hereford in the u.k. and then sttling in Carmarthen west wales and living in , can you believe Mill Street in Carmarthen!The name i have is John lane who married Elizabeth. they had a number of children, John, Louisa, David are names I have been given. Any info would be gratefully received. any lanes in Mill Street?

  18. Further to Leader Genealogy, Milton is correct. The Richard Leader/Ironworks/Sagus River (?) is not in any way connected with Leader/Radley. I have gen.papers made out by Michael Leader. 2xgt grandson of Thomas Radley esq,of Knockraur, and Fellow of I.G.R.S. He was also the son of Lt. Col.John Leader of Keale.The Radleys and Leaders were cousins who intermarried from 17th century to late 1800s. Regarding my note on Patrick Cleburne. I should have said “Alice Crooke Lindsey, my 3rd gt gm and Anne Crooke Ronayne were sisters” not Alicia. Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

  19. If you are researching the Leaders of Millstreet, or any other Millstreet family, you might like to know about the Casey Collection. This is a very large collection of Irish genealogical information collected by Albert E. Casey some years ago. Millstreet is within Dr. Casey’s primary area of interest so there is a lot of material that relates to Millstreet families. Dr. Casey’s collection is available at Samford University, a small Baptist college in Birmingham, Alabama, USA. http://library.samford.edu/about/sc/irishbiblio.html They claim to have collected other “Irish” material but the Casey Collection is still the centerpiece.

    If you aren’t likely to get to Alabama any time soon, you could look for the Casey Collection in book form. It’s called “O’Kief, Coshe Mang, Slieve Lougher and the Upper Blackwater in Ireland.” The thing is 16 very large volumes. Each volume is indexed but there is no comprehensive index. Here is a description of the collection and a list of the contents of the volumes: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlker/caseydescription.html

    Frankly, the thing is a jumbled mess. There are gems, though. I found an early 19th century description of several manors of the Upper Blackwater that included descriptions of several Leader manors. So far, it hasn’t helped me with my Leader problem, but I could still find something.

    The book version of the collection is in several libraries in the US, Ireland, and Australia. I don’t know about New Zealand. I came across it in the small private (and uncatalogued) library maintained in a back room by the Irish Genealogical Society of Michigan in Detroit. I’m sure many of you already know about this, but if you don’t it’s worth looking for.

  20. Casey Bibliography is a good place to clear up any misconceptions like Richard Leader being the ancestor of Leaders of Millstreet. The living descendent of Richard Leader, Iron Works Manager, comes from a family of Radleys who first appeared in Essex New Jersey c 1681. Unrelated to Cork Radleys. Her New England ancestors include Richard Leader b.1609 died 1660 in Maine USA.He was married to Sarah Aldersley c 1640 in Lynn Mass. He had 2 children both girls.Sarah 1644/1649 and Elizabeth Leader 1650/1705 He and his brother George did work for John Beex & Co in Ireland before 1644., then went to Maine.This lot are often mixed up with Radleys/Leaders of Cork. Easy to see why. Lorraine

    1. Somehow it always seemed to me that it was a bit more likely that the Millstreet Leaders descended from a “Cromwell soldier” than a Maine iron works manager. Besides, if Richard Leader had two children and both were daughters, would he be an ancestor of ANY Leaders?

      As you know, it’s always a bit dangerous to make much of similarities, or differences, in surnames. While I am reasonably certain that all Millstreet Leaders are part of a single extended family, there could easily be other unrelated English families named Leader. I believe the name means military leader (officer). Leader can also be a German name. There is a town near the small city of York (not New York) in southeastern Pennsylvania named Leader Heights. Pennsylvania Governor George Leader came from the vicinity. But, Governor Leader is not a long-lost relative nor is Leader Heights a nest of Millstreet Leaders. Governor Leader is Pennsylvania Dutch (German) and York is a center of Pennsylvania Dutch country.

  21. The descent chart for LEADERS of KEALE is …Leonard of Stakehill b1762/Married Sarah White 1796. Nicholas White, her brother, married Frances Radley(dtr of my 3 rd gt gfr Richard Radley of Knockraur). John of KealeMD married Margaret Radley 1836. She was dtr of my 2xgt gfr Thomas Radley, Knockraur. Their son John married Annie McMurray in 1875.In turn their son LT COL.JOHN LEADER of KEALE, MILLSTREET married Eveyln Pleydell Bouverie. Michael Leader was one of his sons.
    Lorraine

  22. Will of Richard Leader,I/Wks Mgr.Court Rec.30/6/1668.Deed Vol.2 page 149b.New Hampshire Wills”Admin gtd to ???HOLE and SAM CLARK 30/6/1668 who md dtrs of Richard.Leader”. Richard was survived ONLY by Anne, his dtr, who md Clark.His brother George settled in NEWICHWANNOCK in 1652.Irish naming pattern comes into play here. Richard appears only 3 times. John and Henry many times in Leader Gen. The Richard family name comes from RADLEY side. The 3 Richards were all descended from Thos.Radley.1.Richard Radley Leader MD, g’son Thom.of Rockville c1836.2 Richard Leader of Oldcastle Gtgson and 3 Rich. of Bishoptown gggson of Thomas.c1689 Richard Leader,I/Wmgr was not progenitor of either Radley or Leader of Millstreet. Lorraine

  23. Hi all,
    I am interested to find a lineage of Leaders beginning with a Patrick Leader who was alive in 1766, and witness to a christening of his sister’s child, so therefore was born probably prior to 1745. His sisters were Gobnet & Winnifred.
    This means that he must probably have been either a brother or son to one of the first two John Leaders of Keale, for which I haven’t been able to find previously.
    Anyone have any ideas or info on this.
    Cheers.
    Milton.

  24. After a CAREFUL search, this is what came up about LEADERS. IOHN LEADER married 1750 JANE RADLEY (granddaughter of FRANCIS RADLEY/CATH.HALL married 1696 )Francis/Cath. were MY 5x great grandparents). THOMAS RADLEY of KNOCKRAUR md MARG.dtr of JOHN PURDON. THOMAS was son of FRANCIS and brother to my 4xgt gfr RICHARD RADLEY.The 4xtimes great grandchild of Francis Radley, Knockraur, was JOHN of KEALE married to Margaret Radley in 1836.Margaret was also 4xgt grandchild of Francis.Unspecific relationships are confusing.
    Lorraine

  25. Earlier I outlined the descent from Margaret Radley & Henry Leader to Nicholas Leader. I’m interested to know if this appears correct. Also, does anyone know anything about Christabella Philpott? It appears that her line goes back through Freeman, Carew, Hyde, Zouche, but I don’t trust the information I have. Thanks, Linda

  26. Hi Linda,
    The dates of your first 3 generations appear to be estimates, Henry Leader who was son of Henry & Christabella died in 1809 aged 62, meaning he was born approx 1747.
    Nicholas Leader went to Sydney in 1838 after his wife Eliza Ellis died, with his children who were still living, and remarried Elizabeth Plummer (Moore).
    It was Sarah Christiana who went to Hobart where she married Henry John Chapman.

    Regarding Christabella Philpott, she was daughter of William Philpott and Catherine Freeman. The Philpots came from Faversham in Kent where their ancestors were Mayors of Faversham.

    Catherine Freemans father was William Freeman who bought Castlecor about 1700 from John Chinnery, another Leader relative.

    I have every reason to believe the connections to these aristocrat families is correct, it even came down through the family that there were these connections, eventually leading back to descent from Edward 111.
    The reappearance of the name Christabella in 7 generations is evidence that this is probably on the right track.

    The Tullig and Mount Leader Leaders were always marrying families with these sort of influences.

    Cheers.
    Milton

    1. Hi Milton – it has been great to find this site as I have recently started my family tree. I am directly descended from Hanora Leader, daughter of Nicholas and Eliza Ellis. I too have researched the family via ancestry.com and have the earliest Leader as John Leader b. 1584 Saffron Waldren. I just wondered if you could really trace the family back directly to Edward III and through which branch? My earliest Philpot is John Philpot b. 1545 in Faversham, Kent. I am trying to find out if he is related to the John Philpot who was burned at the stake by Mary Tudor for being a protestant heretic? Also, how did they come to be in Cork? There was also a John Philpot who was mayor of London in 1375 – is he related? I would be grateful if anyone has any leads on these… I am from London, though my mother is from New Zealand – an Edwards from Hanora’s marriage to Richard Edwards of Warwick. Thanks so much – this site has been really helpful in piecing together the jigsaw… Kirsten

      1. Hi Kirsten – I was interested to read that you are that you descend from Nicholas Leader and Eliza Ellis. Eliza Ellis was the sister of my ggg-grandmother, Sarah Teresa Ellis. You might be interested in an article, “The Ellis Family of Millstreet” written by historian and author, Peter Berresford Ellis – http://aubanehistoricalsociety.org/aubane_collection/millstreet_consider.pdf . I believe the Edward III link comes via Christabella Philpott who married Henry Leader of Tullig in 1741. I believe Christabella’s grandmother, Christabella Carew, was a descendant of Edward III. I will contact Milton about your post. He has changed his email address so he most probably never got an email alert that you had posted a reply.

        1. Hi Alan – thanks so much for getting in touch – that’s really helpful. Thanks also for the info on the Ellises. My earliest Ellis is Nicholas who married Anabella Cranfield in 1760. I can’t seem to find any more information on the Cranfield line – just wondered if you knew any more about that… the article is really helpful too… Cheers… Kirsten

          1. Hi kirsten,

            Sorry for the delay in replying.

            The lineage for Henry Leader of Tullig who married Christabella Philpott
            seems to come from Saffron Walden, although there is no proof, I did find
            his Grandfather also named Henry transacted with people from Saffron Walden
            who were Tanners, the Saffron Walden Leaders were also tanners. The coat of
            arm’s is too similar to be otherwise.

            Christabella’s lineage back to the royal lineages is clear however through
            her mother’s mother’s side, the Carew family..

            The problem though is that Nicholas who went to Australia had a father Henry
            of Tullig, but it isn’t clear which one, either Henry & Christabella’s son
            Henry who might have remarried, or his Gson Henry, who was supposed to have
            died without children. I’m betting on the first option, as Tullig passed
            back to the original owners when the Grandson died, and Thomas & Nicholas
            had to finish this transaction probably as half brothers.

            The Philpott’s went to Ireland as John Philpott who became Judge of the
            common plea’s in Louth, and his brother Nicholas who was Christabella’s GG
            Gfather. He settled in Cork Co. They were son’s of John Philpott who was
            mayor of Faversham in 1584 & 1616.
            John’s Grandfather was Henry Philpott who was also mayor of Faversham in
            1564.

            From there I don’t know how it goes, but I suspect he is descended somehow
            from John Philpott Lordmayor of London, & therefore distantly related to the
            Protestant heretic, who incidentally wasn’t the only John Philpott executed
            by this regime.

            Cheers.
            Milton.

          2. Hi Kirsten – unfortunately, I have not been able to find anything on the Cranfields. A while back, Milton and I were curious if the names of Eliza Ellis’s brother, Eyre Green Ellis, had any significance. The “Eyre” has been passed down my family line for many generations. We found a joint tenancy between a Capt. Nicholas Green and a John Eyre over the Carker lands in Doneraile in the 1690’s. Nicholas Green had a brother-in-law with a surname of Funesy. A Thomas Ellis (Clk. “the Clk. abbreviation could stand for Clerk-in-Orders”) married a Sarah Funesy in 1693. A Thomas Ellis was admitted as Curate of Doneraile in the same year. I have no proof but I suspect that it was Nicholas Green’s sister-in-law who married Thomas Ellis, the Curate of Doneraile. John Eyre, I believe, could be from the Eyre’s of Eyrecourt in Galway. It could be that Thomas Ellis, the Curate, was a grandfather of our Nicholas Ellis and Eyre Green Ellis was so named because of this association between our Ellis’s and the Eyre and Green partnership.

        2. Hi Alan and Milton – thanks for all your help. I have finally traced a direct line back to Edward I – it seems a distant cousin (nicholas carew) was descended from Edward III. A helpful site was http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/CAREW3. Here is the line:
          Edward I Plantagenet (1239 – 1307)/Eleanor of Castile
          Elizabeth Plantagenet (1282 – 1316)/Humphrey DeBohun (1276 – 1321)
          Margaret DeBohun (1311 – 1391)/Hugh DeCourtenay
          Sir Edward Courtenay (1329 – 1368)/Emmeline Dawnay
          Hugh Courtenay (1360 – 1425)/Philippa Arcedekne
          Joan Courtenay (1402 – 1436)/Nicholas Carew
          Nicholas Carew (1433 – 1462)/Elizabeth Coker
          John CAREW (1458 – 1528)/Katherine Zouche
          John Carew (1494 – 1529)/Elizabeth Martyn
          Thomas Carew (1520 – 1586)/Mary Hoddy
          John Carew (1564 – 1623)/Elizabeth Hill
          Ross Carew (1605 – 1661)/Ann Hyde
          Robert Carew (1645 – 1706)/Ann Lynne
          Christabella Carew (1676 – )/William Freeman
          Catherine Freeman (1693 – )/William Philpot
          Christabella Philpott (1710 – 1794)
          Thanks! Kirsten

          1. Hi Kirsten,
            Christabella is descended from Eddy 1 by at least 10 different lines, meaning that most of her ancestors are from this aristocratic class.
            Cheers.
            Milton.

  27. I have now found evidence that in 1676, Henry Leader, Gent, of Castle Curr (Castlecor Flintfield) was transacting with a Thomas Speller of Littlebury, Saffron Walden in Essex. This combined with the fact that the Leader coat of arms from both Cork & Essex are very similar would almost certainly conclude that our Leaders are from there, and as previously thought in no way connected to the Richard Leader from the Ironworks.

    Cheers.
    Milton.

  28. Milton Thanks for confirming that Richard Leader (I/W/M) is not the progenitor of Leader family. It all comes back to John and Henry Leader and the Radley sisters, from whom we all descend. Where did you obtain this information, if I may ask? I can scan a page from Burkes re Leaders, if anyone wants it
    Lorraine

  29. Hi Lorraine,

    This reference can be found at http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/%5CViewCatalogue.asp?ID=98077

    I suspect this Henry died about 1709 and passed his holdings to his sons Henry & John who married the Radley girls. There are records of transactions at this time on the registry of deeds website.

    Henry would have been of Castlecor as a result of his mother Alice (widow of John) marrying George Chinnery who’s family by this time owned Castlecor.
    Mavella Chinnery of Castlecor no doubt was Henry’s half sister, making the Radley girls & the Leader brothers half cousins.

    Cheers.
    Milton.

    PS to your email regarding Mary Davies……I reckon she is either 2nd wife of Richard Leader of Oldcastle, or the first wife of Richard Leader (son of Richard L of Oldcastle). Her sister Rebecca married Robert Ashe of Ashgrove (which Thomas Leader later bought)
    The marriage date I have for Mary is 30 January 1798. I think there was a daughter Frances.

  30. Milton Had a look at Essex info. Seems to wrapup Richard.Leader.Iron W/M. Wonder who thought up that unsubstantiated story? About Mary Davies and Richard Leader of Oldcastle…R.L.married Mary Radley (sister of my 2xgt gfr Thomas Radley,esq.Knockraur.) Their son. Richard of Bishoptown married Sarah Boate. Mary Davies was , no doubt, 2nd wife of Rich.Oldcastle. Elizabeth Davies, her sister, married as 2nd wife(1st wife was Alice Crooke, from whom we descend) my 3xgt gfr Henry Lindsey of Peake. They certainly kept it all in the family.About ASHE, I have corresponded recently, with an ASHE descendent, who was enquiring about Mary Davies. I will give you his add. if you wish. No doubt be interested to hear Thomas Leader bought his property.
    regards Lorraine

  31. Also interesting to note that Oliver Cromwell came from Saffron Walden, more than likely John Leader the Cromwell soldier knew him, & hence he probably received a greater military recognition and with it larger land grants.

  32. Well, the version I’ve heard for many years was that the Leaders were descended from “a Cromwell soldier.”

    I noticed the name OLDCASTLE. This may be a coincidence, but there was a Sir John Oldcastle who was a friend of Henry V when Henry was a youth. But, he was also a Lollard and, when Henry wanted to invade France, he secured the support of the Church by suppressing Lollards and executing his former friend. This would all be a minor footnote, but an unknown playwright in Elizabethan England wrote “The Famous Victories of Henry V” and used Oldcastle as a disreputable companion of young Henry. When Shakespeare got hold of the material, he turned the Oldcastle part into a work of supreme comic genius. The only problem was that Oldcastle had powerful descendants and, moreover, was viewed as a proto-Protestant martyr. Shakespeare was quickly forced to change the part to “Sir John Falstaff.”

    We aren’t somehow related to Falstaff are we? 🙂

  33. Hi Harry Interesting bit about Oldcastle. Have a look at Kilbrin Website, in particular Curraghs Campaign. Lots of information on Leader and Land rights.

    Lorraine

  34. Hi Harry,
    I wonder if the John Leader who was headmaster of a Protestant school which also taught mostly Catholic children in Liscahane/Millstreet area about 1826 was father of John Hall Leader.
    Milton.

    1. Hi Milton,

      That’s interesting. John Hall Leader was born in January 1828 so the timing is about right. John Hall’s two oldest children wrote some notes about 25 years after his death that indicated their grandfather’s name was John and that he died young, before John Hall left Ireland in 1848. On the other hand, there are sources that mention that John Hall was educated by the Christian Brothers in Cork. One of the sources stated that the education was at “Christian Brothers College.” How would this fit in with the possibility that John Hall’s father was a school teacher? Also, would the headmaster of a Protestant school be a Catholic? Or have a Catholic son?

      John Hall Leader’s obituary, which I have transcribed here: http://www.connorshistory.com/Connors/JHLobit.html mentions that he was a school teacher when he first came to Galena, Illinois. The fourth paragraph in that obituary mentions his Catholicism, education (though not the Christian Brothers), and his abilities in debate. It’s nice to know I get it honestly. 🙂

      Where did you find the bit about John Leader, headmaster of a Protestant school?

    2. A couple of additional thoughts.

      If John Leader, the headmaster, had a Catholic wife that could have resulted in a Catholic son. Also, a Catholic wife might have made him more sympathetic to the plight of uneducated Catholic boys.

      It is pretty easy to imagine the John Hall Leader of the obituary as the son of a school headmaster. Still, this isn’t real evidence that the connection exists. Intriguing, though…

  35. Kirsten Morrison… Kirsten Re CRANFIELD. This may be your line James Cranfield Earl of Middlesex. Cranfield name appears a number of times in Becher/Beecher line. My x times gt gps(Eliz.Turner and Col.Thom.Beecher/Becher)’s son John Becher. Mayor of Bristol. md Mary Cranfield 1600s. Cranfields were allegedly desc ended from E.III As Leaders seemed to marry up, there is probability that if you persue this line (E. of Middlesex) you may find info. on Cranfield.

    Lorraine

    1. Thanks Lorraine – I did wonder about that line. It just seems that the male line runs out before Anabella so perhaps Cranfield is her middle name. I’ll keep searching! Cheers Kirsten

    2. I tend to think our Cranfields are not descended from this Cranfield line, although they are probably related.
      The name Cranfield in Ireland appears to have come to Ireland not long after 1641 to Tralee in Kerry, see link below.
      Cheers.
      Milton.

      http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=WutPfYaJLY8C&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=tralee+%22robert+cranfield%22&source=bl&ots=Xe16pktYWh&sig=wqFGaDAao0A6a6QMkbdOdSOA5rc&hl=en&ei=ulLCTPzyGo2ssAPJvemEDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAw

  36. Interesting re Ed.III. Earl Middlesex’s title (CRANFIELD) became extinct 1674. Lionel Cranfield was originally a London Merchant who went on to bigger things and ended up in Tower. Cranfield name from Bedfordshire would still exist as such. A few of my ancestors have a middle name of Cranfield. I did read somewhere 80% of English people descend from Ed.I.

    Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com

  37. Thanks Milton for figuring out relationship of Richard of Oldcastle/Mary Radley/Henry,of Tullig I see your point re Kerry family.There does seem a lot of middle Cranfield names in various influential families in Cork/Kerry. Maybe a cadet branch of Cranfield of Bedfordshire. Always intriguing, these enigmas.
    Lorraine

  38. CRANFIELD information. thanks to MILTON. settled in Kerry subsequently to 1641/2 rebellion. Came from Essex and BEDFORDSHIRE Robert Cranfield 1743. The last of name was Sexton of Tralee Edward son of Thomas Cranfield. b 1703.Robert lived 1743. Could possibly be a branch of E. of Middlesex (extinct title 1674)??

    Lorraine

  39. Some of the Cranfields do come from Essex, but the gravity of them seem to come from Bedford area, Horrowden in the case of the Middlesex crowd, Cardington, Cople & Blunham. I assume the name derives from Cranfield itself not far to the west. Lionel’s crowd became Earls of Cranfield.
    Names in Ireland suggest they might be related to the Blunham family. The family in Dublin are probably also in this branch, eg Richard Cranfield the famous carver, & Cranfield Baths built by his son.
    Cheers.
    Milton.

  40. I found this in an Australian newspaper website: 21 Oct 1871

    “LEADER—At his residence, Albion-street, Sydney, N. S. W., Mr.
    Nicholas Leader, aged 78, formerly of Tullig Mill-street, county
    of Cork, Ireland, and brother of the late Thomas Leader, Esq.,
    merchant, Cork, Ireland, and beloved father of Michael Leader,
    draper, 85, South Head Road, Sydney.”

    Thomas Leader of Ashgrove is most likely the brother.
    Cheers.
    Milton.

    1. Milton…. On searching for someone I found out we have a Martha Philpott married to William Crooke Lindsey 1819. She was dtr of Lysaght Philpott ESQ of Means(?) Any relation to Christabelle? Also have you any information on RICHARD LEADER CONNELL. I have reason to think he might be one of Leaders? Lorraine

  41. Yes, Christabella & Lysaght are definitely related, they are the Philpotts of Scarteen & Newmarket, and members of both branches are buried in the same churchyard. According to the tree I have Lysaght & Christabella are 2nd cousins.
    Martha married 13 January 1819, and a son Henry J Philpott Lindsay was born 1836.
    I am at a loss at the moment regarding a Connell connection with the Leaders as yet though.
    Cheers,
    Milton.

  42. Thanks Milton.My 2xgt gm Alicia Crooke Lindsey (md name Radley)was the sister of William Crooke Lindsey who married Martha Philpott. Most of Cork seemed to intermarry. I found a Mary Leader married to Philip Connell in Boherue attached to a Leader tree on a commercial site. These sites are not always accurate though. Lorraine.

  43. Milton Found this in 1847 edition of Burkes. HENRY LEADER ESQ (descended from EDWARD LEADER of HUNTINGDONSHIRE, who went to Ireland as Captain in King William III army, and marrying a dau of Herbert of Muckross, settled at Mt Leader.) Henry was md to Miss Thornhill and his son Henry to Miss Philpott. Were you aware of Henry Leader’s descent from Edward of Huntingdonshire?
    Lorraine

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